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Pagan Holidays [message #1164] Thu, 31 March 2016 20:40 Go to next message
eken is currently offline  eken
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I am new to this forum so hello to all. I am also new to SDA and I am curious what people think about celebrating holidays like Christmas and easter. I have discovered the pagan origins of them and I guess I wonder if anyone has considered keeping the Feasts of God. I mentioned this to the pastor of the SDA church that I have been attending and he said that Colossians 2:14 forbids it and he also doesn't see a problem with celebrating the pagan holidays. I don't know if I agree with his interpretation of that passage but he also recommended a book by Samuele Bacciocci about a different subject and when I was looking in to him I found that he has two other books out suggesting the church should keep the feasts. I also discovered that he may be a Jesuit which makes me question his motives. Can anyone expand on this?
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1165 is a reply to message #1164] Fri, 01 April 2016 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mouse is currently offline  mouse
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We aren't SDAs. The SDA have fallen into apostasy, check out SDAapostasy.org. The feasts point to the cross which is why it ended at the cross. As for the pagan holidays, yeah it is wrong to celebrate them. More info is linked: halloween, xmas, easter, valentine's day, and birthdays.
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1168 is a reply to message #1165] Fri, 01 April 2016 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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thank you for your reply. I understand your position in regards to the SDA that's why I'm posting this question here. I don't know if I am SDA at this time as I am still studying the matter and one issue I have is that they keep the pagan feasts that God forbid them to keep and they ignore feasts which he told us to keep. I don't want to keep easter and celebrate the resurrection of tamuz but I don't see the problem with keeping the Passover and celebrating the resurrection of Jesus. The fact that they point to the cross is exactly why I want to keep them. what is wrong with keeping the feasts as a celebration of the cross? is there any scripture that says not to keep them? it does seem to me that Jesus does say not to eat the Passover lamb in Luke 22;16 and then he replaces the lamb with bread but I don't understand why not keep Gods feasts? They are His feasts that he shared with His people. Lev 23:2
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1170 is a reply to message #1168] Sat, 02 April 2016 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mouse is currently offline  mouse
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The feasts points to the cross, and because it has been fulfilled, we no longer keep the feasts. We keep the communion as instructed by Christ. Think of it as the cross casting a shadow. If you follow the shadow it leads to the cross. The feasts is that shadow. In the Old Testament times Christ hasn't come yet, so that's why they had the feasts to point towards the cross. Now that Christ has died for our sins on the cross and resurrected, we are no longer in the shadow, we view the cross in full light. To continue keeping the feasts is to declare that Christ didn't die for our sins on the cross. Here is more information on the feast days: http://remnantofgod.org/Yah-feast.htm/


Here is the Seventh Day Remnant church's statement of faith if you're interested: http://remnantofgod.org/statementoffaith.htm#statement
We meet online at http://www.remnantofgod.org/chat.htm

[Updated on: Sat, 02 April 2016 09:13]

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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1172 is a reply to message #1168] Sat, 02 April 2016 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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eken wrote on Sat, 02 April 2016 01:12
thank you for your reply. I understand your position in regards to the SDA that's why I'm posting this question here. I don't know if I am SDA at this time as I am still studying the matter and one issue I have is that they keep the pagan feasts that God forbid them to keep and they ignore feasts which he told us to keep. I don't want to keep easter and celebrate the resurrection of tamuz but I don't see the problem with keeping the Passover and celebrating the resurrection of Jesus. The fact that they point to the cross is exactly why I want to keep them. what is wrong with keeping the feasts as a celebration of the cross? is there any scripture that says not to keep them? it does seem to me that Jesus does say not to eat the Passover lamb in Luke 22;16 and then he replaces the lamb with bread but I don't understand why not keep Gods feasts? They are His feasts that he shared with His people. Lev 23:2


The Scriptures do indeed teach us not to keep the feast days. These feast days, handwritten in the law of Moses, were representations of Christ. The keeping of them was a representation of the faith in the coming Messiah. The feast days point forward, not backwards. Once Christ came, and died on the cross for our sins, they were taken out of the way. Jesus had come as prophesied. There was no more need for the sacrifices to take place anymore. This Paul explains in Colossians 2. Speaking of Christ, he says:

Colossians 2:14-18 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

The feasts days were indeed ordained of God, but they were to represent the coming Messiah, and the work which He was to accomplish for us. To keep those feasts now would be to declare that you are still expecting the Messiah to come, thereby denying Christ as the Messiah. It is no evidence that you are a Christian, but rather, a declaration against Christianity.

Let no man beguile you of your reward, by causing you to be voluntarily "humble" to take part in these feast days. The Jews were zealous for these feasts, and would gladly have imposed them (and they tried) upon the Gentile believers.

God Himself rent the temple vain in two, signifying the end of the feast days, that the Messiah, His beloved Son, had come. This He did also because the way into the "Holiest of all" was made manifest, that is, the way into the Most Holy place of the Heavenly Temple was made manifest. Now that the way into the Holiest of all was made manifest, and that by faith in His Son Christ the Messiah, there was no longer a need for feast days, to look for the coming Messiah.


Mark 15:37-39 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Hebrews 9:1-3 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

Hebrews 9:6-10 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The feast days were only until the time of the reformation. They were a part of the first covenant, not the New Covenant. This is not to say that understanding the feast days, and what they signified is unimportant. A study upon the sanctuary and it's services is warranted for the Christian. We ought to understand what each feast day signified when it comes to Christ. It will illuminate us of the work which He is currently doing right now, in the Most Holy Place.

Now that Jesus has come, and we look to Him, and the work that He does in the heavenly sanctuary, we keep the last supper (foot-washing included), which He established before His death. This signifies that He has come, and has died for our sins. These reasons (at least) are why we as Christians are not to keep the feast days.

I hope this helps! (:


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[Updated on: Sat, 02 April 2016 09:35]

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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1173 is a reply to message #1172] Sat, 02 April 2016 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eken is currently offline  eken
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Don't you think that saying Colossians 2:14 does away with the entire Mosaic law is saying too much? wouldn't that mean that eating pork is now OK? Even Ellen White says that we should keep the dietary laws of Moses. The Mosaic law also helps to understand what the 10 Commandments mean. Without the Mosaic law we wouldn't know that paying usury and interest is breaking the eighth commandment. It seems to me that the handwriting of ordinances should only refer to the sacrificial system. Using Acts 6:8 to show that the Jews understood that the Christians were trying to do away with the Mosaic law is not an accurate interpretation since it says right there that it was a FALSE witness that said it. Acts 18:21 Paul says he must by all means keep this feast in Jerusalem. If he must keep it after the veil was rent in twain shouldn't we?
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1174 is a reply to message #1173] Sat, 02 April 2016 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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There are many different laws in the Old Testament. It is an error to categorize it all as Mosaic law. There are God's Law, ceremonial laws, dietary laws, health/hygiene laws, civil law, etc. Colossians 2:14 does not mean it does away certain laws such as God's Law. Reading the context of Colossians 2:14, you'll see that it refers to the feast days in Leviticus.
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1175 is a reply to message #1173] Sat, 02 April 2016 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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Hello eken,

You are correct when you say that the dietary laws of Moses must be kept by Christians. However, the feast days were shadows of the cross of Christ, done away with when He died for us all.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:16, 17.

"In meat, or in drink." If you read the book of Leviticus, you will see that there are plenty of laws that regulate the ceremonial eating and drinking of things (some offerings were to be eaten, for example; see Leviticus 7:15, 16). This is what Paul refers to when he says, "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp." Hebrews 13:9-11. Notice how the "meats" referred to here are associated with the services of the earthly tabernacle (in the Old Covenant). This is what the words, "In meat, or in drink," refer to: the ceremonial services of the Old Covenant that involve eating and drinking.

"Or in respect of an holyday." This refers to days in Judaism that were special, such as the Passover. No man may judge us about these things.

"Or of the new moon." That is, the new moon feast days. We cannot be judged about those feast days either; that is, we do not have to keep such days.

"Or of the sabbath days." This refers to the sabbath feast days of Leviticus 23:23-38. As verse 38 says, these were "beside" the sabbaths of the Lord (the seventh-day Sabbath). We do not have to keep these sabbath feast days. As the context of Colossians 2:16 shows, Paul is referring to Moses' ordinances (Colossians 2:14), not the Ten Commandments.

"A shadow of things to come." All these ceremonies represented Jesus and the truths He taught. The Old-Covenant services were "a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Hebrews 9:9, 10. The carnal ordinances of feast days cannot make anyone perfect, neither can the ceremonial eatings and drinkings.

If you read Hebrews 7, you will see that Jesus is the High Priest for us now. But for Him to become High Priest, the Levitical priesthood would have to have been abolished and the laws of the priesthood changed. "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,Wink what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Hebrews 7:11, 12. Perfection cannot be attained by keeping laws that foreshadowed Jesus and which were fulfilled by Jesus. To keep such laws now would be a denial of Jesus, because Jesus fulfilled all these laws, and whosoever accepts Jesus thus does not need to keep such laws.

"Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:8. Notice how the leaven and bread spoken of here are figurative, not literal. They would have to be literal if we are to keep the feast days. Jesus kept these days for us because they pointed to Him, so now Christians do not keep such days literally. Accepting Jesus means that, just by accepting Him, all the Old Testament laws that pointed to Jesus, such as sacrifices and offerings, are fulfilled just by the act of becoming a Christian. I repeat myself just so you may understand and so that way I do not say something that may be misunderstood.

God bless you eken Smile.





"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1176 is a reply to message #1173] Sat, 02 April 2016 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SDRAmerica is currently offline  SDRAmerica
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eken wrote on Sat, 02 April 2016 13:46
Don't you think that saying Colossians 2:14 does away with the entire Mosaic law is saying too much? wouldn't that mean that eating pork is now OK? Even Ellen White says that we should keep the dietary laws of Moses. The Mosaic law also helps to understand what the 10 Commandments mean. Without the Mosaic law we wouldn't know that paying usury and interest is breaking the eighth commandment. It seems to me that the handwriting of ordinances should only refer to the sacrificial system. Using Acts 6:8 to show that the Jews understood that the Christians were trying to do away with the Mosaic law is not an accurate interpretation since it says right there that it was a FALSE witness that said it. Acts 18:21 Paul says he must by all means keep this feast in Jerusalem. If he must keep it after the veil was rent in twain shouldn't we?


Hebrews 9:9-10 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

According to the best of my understanding, all the temple services and the sacrifices met an end at the cross of Christ. The temple services with their sacrifices, gifts, meats, drinks, divers washings, and carnal ordinances were only temporary. We must remember that the sacrifical offerings had their beginning with Adam. After he sinned, he offered sacrifices, as well as the Patriarchs of old did. Then Israel was given a greater system of sacrifices and offerings, but was only given for them until Christ the Messiah should come, and die on the cross. This is even prophesied by the prophet Daniel:


Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The "sacrifice and oblation" is the exact same gifts and sacrifices that Paul himself spoke of in Hebrews 9:9. These temple services, were only imposed upon the people until the time of reformation came, as Hebrews 9:10 says. Once the reformation came, they ceased, as indicated in Daniel 9:27. So all of these services have ended, and met their end in Christ. To partake in them, is to declare that they have not met their end, and that Christ was not the Messiah. For Him they were to cease. To continue them is to say that He has not come, therefore they have not ceased.

As for the 10 Commandments, you can find them in the law of Moses. They give a greater depth of understanding for man to understand the requirements of God. The 10 Commandments of course have not passed, so neither has the depth shown in the book of the law passed.

For example, eating unclean animals is still a violation of the natural laws of our being. To eat these things is to poison ourselves, and a violation of commandment #6. Things such as this still remain, because they exist for our health, and for God's sacred and holy law.
As for Acts 6:8, I am not sure what you mean. (:


Acts 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

As for Paul "keeping the feast", Paul undoubtedly understood that the feasts represented Christ. He knew that the Bible said when Christ came, these things would cease (as we see in Hebrews). Therefore, why went Paul? To partake, and sacrifice for his sins? No, but because of large number of Jews who would be gathered there, to whom he could preach Christ the Messiah. His heart longed after his fellow countrymen. Therefore when the multitudes were gathered, there he gathered also, to preach unto them.

Hope this helps (:


Truth is truth.
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www.SDRLoudCry.weebly.com
www.youtube.com/SDRAmerica

[Updated on: Sat, 02 April 2016 12:36]

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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1177 is a reply to message #1176] Sat, 02 April 2016 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mouse is currently offline  mouse
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well said, Hello_There and Dgenesis Smile
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1178 is a reply to message #1177] Sat, 02 April 2016 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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mouse wrote on Sat, 02 April 2016 15:51
well said, Hello_There and Dgenesis Smile


Praise the LORD!


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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1181 is a reply to message #1178] Sun, 03 April 2016 06:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Thank you for all the responses. They are very much appreciated. DGenesis- you say that Acts 18:21 Paul is not going to the feast to offer sacrifices but later in Acts 21:24-26 he does offer a sacrifice at the temple. Can you explain why he would? Just so everyone is clear, I am not suggesting that we offer sacrifices during the feast but I wonder why the feasts cant be celebrated if I'm going to take away the pagan holidays from my family? do you not celebrate anything all year long except the Lords Supper? my thinking is that the feasts can be kept in such a manner as to remember what they point to. They can be used as a lesson to my children as to why they were kept and why they all point to the Cross. instead of just taking away all the holidays that there friends are enjoying I would like to replace them with something else.

most of the verses brought up are pretty clear that the sacrifices were done away with. but as far as Colossians 2:16 is concerned. Is it possible that he is saying not to let any man judge what is done on that day? Maybe they kept the feast but without the sacrifice.

Luke22:15-20 if you break down the words it seems a couple of the words may be mistranslated. The "I will" in verse 16 and 18 does not mean "I will" but should be "that" or "because" which changes the meaning of the verse entirely. He is not telling us that He will not eat the Passover but that we should not eat the Passover. Then right after in verse 19 He institutes the Lords Supper. If the passage is read that way doesn't it mean that the Passover lamb was taken away and replaced with bread? That would explain why Colossians 2:16 says don't let anyone judge you in respect of the feasts. Not because they are not celebrating them but because they are celebrating them differently.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1182 is a reply to message #1181] Sun, 03 April 2016 08:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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eken wrote on Sun, 03 April 2016 09:28
Thank you for all the responses. They are very much appreciated. DGenesis- you say that Acts 18:21 Paul is not going to the feast to offer sacrifices but later in Acts 21:24-26 he does offer a sacrifice at the temple. Can you explain why he would? Just so everyone is clear, I am not suggesting that we offer sacrifices during the feast but I wonder why the feasts cant be celebrated if I'm going to take away the pagan holidays from my family? do you not celebrate anything all year long except the Lords Supper? my thinking is that the feasts can be kept in such a manner as to remember what they point to. They can be used as a lesson to my children as to why they were kept and why they all point to the Cross. instead of just taking away all the holidays that there friends are enjoying I would like to replace them with something else.

most of the verses brought up are pretty clear that the sacrifices were done away with. but as far as Colossians 2:16 is concerned. Is it possible that he is saying not to let any man judge what is done on that day? Maybe they kept the feast but without the sacrifice.

Luke22:15-20 if you break down the words it seems a couple of the words may be mistranslated. The "I will" in verse 16 and 18 does not mean "I will" but should be "that" or "because" which changes the meaning of the verse entirely. He is not telling us that He will not eat the Passover but that we should not eat the Passover. Then right after in verse 19 He institutes the Lords Supper. If the passage is read that way doesn't it mean that the Passover lamb was taken away and replaced with bread? That would explain why Colossians 2:16 says don't let anyone judge you in respect of the feasts. Not because they are not celebrating them but because they are celebrating them differently.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


It is not possible that "maybe" they kept the feasts, but without the sacrifices, for this is out of harmony with what the Bible says. The feast days cannot mean what we want them to mean, but they mean what God designed that they should mean. We cannot keep the feast in a way that points backwards to the cross of Christ anymore than we can keep Sunday holy in a way that points to the 7th Day rest. The feast days do not point backwards. They point forwards, and declare that the Messiah has not come, and has not yet died for our sins.

The suggestion that Colossians 2:16 is about not letting anyone judge you on how you keep it, is out of harmony with what Paul himself is saying.


Colossians 2:14-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The reason why people were not to judge one another about it is because Christ blotted them out, not because they were still to kept it. It is not a judgment on how it should be kept, but a judgment on whether you keep it or not. Because they were blotted out and nailed to the cross, therefore, let no man judge you in them. The feast days, etc. are a shadow. We should not be keeping the shadow of things to come, once the Messiah has come.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Here is a better explanation than I can give for this passage:

The brethren hoped that Paul, by following the course suggested, might give a decisive contradiction to the false reports concerning him. They assured him that the decision of the former council concerning the Gentile converts and the ceremonial law, still held good. But the advice now given was not consistent with that decision. The Spirit of God did not prompt this instruction; it was the fruit of cowardice. The leaders of the church in Jerusalem knew that by non-conformity to the ceremonial law, Christians would bring upon themselves the hatred of the Jews and expose themselves to persecution. The Sanhedrin was doing its utmost to hinder the progress of the gospel. Men were chosen by this body to follow up the apostles, especially Paul, and inevery possible way to oppose their work. Should the believers in Christ be condemned before the Sanhedrin as breakers of the law, they would suffer swift and severe punishment as apostates from the Jewish faith. {AA 404.1}


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[Updated on: Sun, 03 April 2016 09:15]

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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1183 is a reply to message #1181] Sun, 03 April 2016 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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Quote:
Luke22:15-20 if you break down the words it seems a couple of the words may be mistranslated. The "I will" in verse 16 and 18 does not mean "I will" but should be "that" or "because" which changes the meaning of the verse entirely. He is not telling us that He will not eat the Passover but that we should not eat the Passover. Then right after in verse 19 He institutes the Lords Supper. If the passage is read that way doesn't it mean that the Passover lamb was taken away and replaced with bread? That would explain why Colossians 2:16 says don't let anyone judge you in respect of the feasts. Not because they are not celebrating them but because they are celebrating them differently.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


eken, the "I will" does not mean because. "I will" simply means just that in this case: I will [do this, or not do this]. Jesus here says that He will not eat the passover "until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." "It" refers to the passover. The passover was a foreshadowing of Jesus. "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." 1 Corinthians 5:7. There is no way for us to keep the passover without mocking the death of Jesus for all of us. Jesus' death fulfilled the passover, and so we do not keep passover. To keep the passover would be to say that the Lamb of God must be sacrificed. He already has been sacrificed for us all, "once for all." Hebrews 10:10.

I am not perfectly sure as to what Jesus means in Luke 22:16. As far as God has given me light on this verse, the verse suggests that the passover will be kept in the new earth. Reason is, the passover will be perfectly fulfilled "in the kingdom of God" after everyone has accepted the blood of the Lamb (Jesus). Remember how that everyone could only put the blood of the passover lamb on their doors before nightfall, and that after nightfall it was too late to protect the firstborn from being slain? When prophetic night falls (see John 9:4) just before Jesus' second coming (Matthew 20:1-16; Revelation 22:12; notice how the householder pays his laborers at even--the end of a Bible day; see Genesis 1 for the definition of a literal day), it will be too late to accept Jesus' blood. Psalm 91:10 will apply to only true Christians (although in the context of the end of the world, because many Christians shall be "beheaded" for refusing the mark of the beast, only the 144,000 will enjoy the protection of their dwellings as well as having no evil come to them), and their dwellings will be protected during the seven last plagues just as the Israelites' were when they kept the passover in Egypt. But those who do not accept His blood will die at the great white throne judgment.

That is how the passover will be "fulfilled in the kingdom of God." Jesus already fulfilled every aspect of the passover, so we do not have to keep it; now people need only accept His blood. In the new earth, we may very well end up keeping the passover (although differently than the Israelites, because the Old Testament passover required the death of an animal, and in the new earth there shall be no more death). But that is fine, because when Jesus comes, it is then that tittles of the law shall pass from the law (Matthew 5:18; Revelation 6:14-17). That is, on earth right now it would be sin to keep the passover, but in heaven it will not be if that is what Luke 22:16 says. 1 John 3:4 says that sin is the transgression of the law, so if something that was sinful suddenly becomes not sinful, then the law changes.

God willing I answered your question about this passage :).


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.

[Updated on: Sun, 03 April 2016 12:02]

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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1185 is a reply to message #1183] Sun, 03 April 2016 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eken is currently offline  eken
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Thank you all for your responses, you have given me a lot to think about.

Hello_There you say that the "I will" does Mean I will in this case but how do you know? Using a strongs concordance the word is G3754 and I will is no where in the definition. I admit I am not a translator but when I read that statement it doesn't make any sense for him to tell us what he is not going to do. especially if he intended for us to stop the Passover. why didn't he just say this is the last Passover? It makes more logical sense that he took away the lamb because that was looking forward to the cross and since Jesus is the Bread of life it has been replaced with Bread. It seems to me that the Lords Supper should be done at the Passover and It should be more of a celebration of the resurrection of our Lord and it should be a meal where everyone comes together in celebration. Can anyone tell me what you celebrate throughout the year? Do you give up all Holidays?

DGenesis I don't see how what I'm saying is out of harmony with Col 2:16. If you think that verse is clearly saying to stop keeping the Holidays then by the same logic we must also stop eating and drinking because he says therefor let no man judge you in meat or in drink. why would they judge the Christians if they were keeping the dietary laws? Why would he even say meat or drink along with the holiday unless something changed with the diet during the holiday? If they weren't to keep the holiday then there is no reason to say anything about meat or drink? I think the only reason the Jews were so upset with them is because they were changing the feasts. If they stopped keeping the feasts wouldn't the Jews just call them pagans and move on?
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1186 is a reply to message #1185] Mon, 04 April 2016 06:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SDRAmerica is currently offline  SDRAmerica
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eken wrote on Sun, 03 April 2016 23:49
Thank you all for your responses, you have given me a lot to think about.

Hello_There you say that the "I will" does Mean I will in this case but how do you know? Using a strongs concordance the word is G3754 and I will is no where in the definition. I admit I am not a translator but when I read that statement it doesn't make any sense for him to tell us what he is not going to do. especially if he intended for us to stop the Passover. why didn't he just say this is the last Passover? It makes more logical sense that he took away the lamb because that was looking forward to the cross and since Jesus is the Bread of life it has been replaced with Bread. It seems to me that the Lords Supper should be done at the Passover and It should be more of a celebration of the resurrection of our Lord and it should be a meal where everyone comes together in celebration. Can anyone tell me what you celebrate throughout the year? Do you give up all Holidays?

DGenesis I don't see how what I'm saying is out of harmony with Col 2:16. If you think that verse is clearly saying to stop keeping the Holidays then by the same logic we must also stop eating and drinking because he says therefor let no man judge you in meat or in drink. why would they judge the Christians if they were keeping the dietary laws? Why would he even say meat or drink along with the holiday unless something changed with the diet during the holiday? If they weren't to keep the holiday then there is no reason to say anything about meat or drink? I think the only reason the Jews were so upset with them is because they were changing the feasts. If they stopped keeping the feasts wouldn't the Jews just call them pagans and move on?


Hey Eken, good day!

In light of Colossians 2:14, what you're saying is out of harmony with what Paul is saying. It specifically mentions in verse 14 that they are passed away, and nailed to the cross. For this reason no man is to judge us in these things. Paul says let no man therefore, meaning that for the reason he previously mentioned, no man is to judge us in meat, drink, holyday, new moon, etc.

As for meat and drink, that has to do with the offerings, because there are meat offerings and drink offerings. Take a look (:


Exodus 29:41 And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

When Christ came and died for us on the cross, He nailed to it the meat offerings, and the drink offerings, and the holy days, new moons, annual sabbaths, etc. Therefore, because He did that, no man can judge us in these things. They are taken away. (:

Hope this helps (:



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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1187 is a reply to message #1185] Mon, 04 April 2016 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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Quote:

Hello_There you say that the "I will" does Mean I will in this case but how do you know? Using a strongs concordance the word is G3754 and I will is no where in the definition. I admit I am not a translator but when I read that statement it doesn't make any sense for him to tell us what he is not going to do. especially if he intended for us to stop the Passover. why didn't he just say this is the last Passover? It makes more logical sense that he took away the lamb because that was looking forward to the cross and since Jesus is the Bread of life it has been replaced with Bread. It seems to me that the Lords Supper should be done at the Passover and It should be more of a celebration of the resurrection of our Lord and it should be a meal where everyone comes together in celebration. Can anyone tell me what you celebrate throughout the year? Do you give up all Holidays?


The Greek word in Luke 22:16 translated "I will" is φάγω (phago). It means:
1. to eat
2. to eat (consume) a thing
a. to take food, eat a meal
b. metaph. to devour, consume
That is according to the Strong's concordance on my iPhone. G5315.

The reason why this word, when translated, includes "I will" is because of tenses. In Greek there are tenses (or forms) of words that mean certain things. We have this in English. In the first person we say, "I/we eat." But in the third person we say, "He/she/it eats." In Greek different tenses are spelled differently to account for whether an action takes place in the past, present, or future, as well as for other grammatical nuances.

Jesus said what He said because it points forward to Passover services in the new earth. If He said, This is the last Passover, it would not be true because of the new earth Passovers. Besides, He knew that the unbelieving Jews were going to keep celebrating the Passover, mocking His death.

The unleavened bread of the Passover also looks forward to the cross, as Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8. Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper to replace the Passover. In 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, Paul shows that the Lord's Supper is to be eaten when we "come together" or gather together for church service. It is not supposed to be done on the Passover.

Hope this answers your questions Smile.


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1191 is a reply to message #1187] Tue, 05 April 2016 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Hello There that is interesting because my phone app "my sword" shows it as G5315 as well but on my computer "e sword" it shows it as G3754. not sure what is correct but they are both suppose to be Strongs. either way I don't understand how the I will is added when the statement just before is stated as a command "For I say unto you". the to you is G5213 and clearly means to you. After that I don't see anything that changes it to "I". It looks more like a command to use and not a statement about himself especially in the context of the next verses where he breaks bread and says this do in remembrance of me.

I would really like to know what some of you do throughout the year. Is there nothing we can celebrate?
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1192 is a reply to message #1191] Wed, 06 April 2016 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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Hello There that is interesting because my phone app "my sword" shows it as G5315 as well but on my computer "e sword" it shows it as G3754. not sure what is correct but they are both suppose to be Strongs. either way I don't understand how the I will is added when the statement just before is stated as a command "For I say unto you". the to you is G5213 and clearly means to you. After that I don't see anything that changes it to "I". It looks more like a command to use and not a statement about himself especially in the context of the next verses where he breaks bread and says this do in remembrance of me.


Strange. Perhaps this difference is due to a different manuscript being used for Luke 22, or perhaps a different edition of the Strong's concordance.

The King James Version was translated by multiple bishops (Anglicans and some Puritans) in the early 1600s, and it was finished in 1611. All of the men involved were excellent scholars; they knew Hebrew and the other Biblical languages. They had manuscripts which match the majority of Biblical manuscripts that exist (the Textus Receptus). Not only so, but the translation is superb; it is still, after over 400 years, the most accurate Bible translation to date. Do you not think that these scholars would have translated a basic "because" in Luke 22:16? They translated basic words like that in the rest of their translation.

The "I" comes from tenses. If you study a language such as Spanish, you will find that it has tenses. For example, if I wanted to say, "I say to [or unto] you," I would say: "Yo les digo a Uds." or "Les digo a Uds." "Yo" is the pronoun for I in this case. "Les" is a pronoun indicating the usage of ustedes (or Uds., which means "they" or "them", although it is used when addressing a group of people; Jesus addressed all of His disciples when He said, "you"). "A Uds." is simply showing "to" (a) whom in particular I refer to with the pronoun "les" (I have to use that phrase again because the pronoun "les" can refer to many things; it can refer to DGenesis1:29 and NicholasPOGM, for instance). "Digo" is the conjugation for "I say." However, I can eliminate the "yo" pronoun and still say the same thing. The sentence "Les digo a Uds." does not contain the literal word for "I," but in translation the "I" is carried over into English because I used the tense for "I [verb]."

Let us read Luke 22:16 by substituting the word "because" into it.

Alteration: For I say unto you, [Because] I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

That rendering of the translation is gramatically awkward; it has two clauses that start with a word meaning "because."

Also, remember, eken, that the Bible clearly teaches that the Passover is abolished for Christians in those other verses which were quoted in this discussion, such as in 1 Corinthians 5 and Colossians 2. "Precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." Isaiah 28:10.

As for holidays: I have problems in this area of my life, which is why I did not answer your question at first. I would guide you to Nicholas's pages on these issues on remnantofgod.org. Let us just say that I feel like Namaan did after he got cleansed, when he sorrowfully realized that, although he wanted to worship only the Lord, his master would take him to a house of pagan gods and have him worship them. I am in a situation similar to Namaan's.

God bless you Smile. I hope I answered your questions.


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.

[Updated on: Wed, 06 April 2016 09:49]

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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1193 is a reply to message #1191] Wed, 06 April 2016 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SDRAmerica is currently offline  SDRAmerica
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eken wrote on Tue, 05 April 2016 23:50
Hello There that is interesting because my phone app "my sword" shows it as G5315 as well but on my computer "e sword" it shows it as G3754. not sure what is correct but they are both suppose to be Strongs. either way I don't understand how the I will is added when the statement just before is stated as a command "For I say unto you". the to you is G5213 and clearly means to you. After that I don't see anything that changes it to "I". It looks more like a command to use and not a statement about himself especially in the context of the next verses where he breaks bread and says this do in remembrance of me.

I would really like to know what some of you do throughout the year. Is there nothing we can celebrate?


Brother,

We can celebrate Sabbath every single week (: We can enjoy nature with our families, to the glory of God, we can fellowship with one another, we love one another. And most importantly, we love God. This is the day that we can celebrate, and give praise and glory to our God, and joy in Him & His wonderful works of creation.

Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

This is the wonderful day we can delight in, in devotions, in love to God, and towards fellow man. This is the day that we can celebrate.

As for other celebrations, we do not like those who know not God, or those who are deceived in the matter of Pagan holidays. Valentines Day, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, & Birthdays are not encouraged by the Seventh Day Remnant Church. Considering their Pagan, or otherwise unbiblical, foundations, we opt to choose not to displease our LORD, but obey Him.


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Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1209 is a reply to message #1193] Sun, 10 April 2016 06:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eken is currently offline  eken
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I would think the difference would be a problem with one of the apps rather than manuscripts since they are both KJV which should be the received text but either way your alteration does not replace the "I will" but just adds "because" but it could also be "eat" and would therefor read "For I say unto you, eat not anymore thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God". My only point is that the "I will" is not actually there and to me it makes more sense if it isn't there because He takes something away and replaces it with something new. It sounds like you are willing to trust the translators and I don't doubt they are much more educated than I am but they have made mistakes and have even put there own bias in some texts. In Acts 12:4 they translated Passover to Easter probably because they were Easter keeping people and wanted to show Easter in the Bible.

This boils down to what "handwriting or ordinances" means and I find it hard to believe that the feasts are "against us". what was against us is the penalty of the law.

something else just came to me in Col 2:17it says "which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ" if they were taken away why doesn't it say which were a shadow of things to come? The word "are" is the greek "esti" and is present tense. He is making the point that they are a shadow and they point to Christ and they are not to be misunderstood as a means of salvation
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1210 is a reply to message #1209] Sun, 10 April 2016 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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eken, I have to ask you whether you will believe the Bible's testimony on this issue. You have not provided Bible verses that plainly show that your views are correct. You have depended upon inferences to make your arguments. "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8. Jesus fulfilled the passover for us, for the passover ceremony required the killing of a passover lamb. The feast days, too, are fulfilled, if we have sincerity and truth. We are not to keep the feast days literally anymore. They are kept by that "unleavened bread" that Paul talks about.

For any one of us to keep the passover after Jesus' death, we would be mocking the sacrifice of Christ. We would be saying that He is not our passover, for we would be sacrificing our own passover lamb, which is saying that Messiah has not come yet. Jesus "abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Ephesians 2:15. Moses' law "stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed... until the time of reformation." Hebrews 9:10. It is Moses' ceremonial law which is done away by Christ, and that ceremonial law includes the passover.

Long ago Paul had to combat a heresy in Galatia. Some false teachers were leading the Galatian church astray. They taught that they must keep the ceremonial law of Moses to be saved. In reality, they were putting away Christ as they kept the ceremonial law. Paul says to them: "Now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain." Galatians 4:9-11. Paul was worried that his labor for the Galatian church was fruitless, because many Galatians were apostatizing after the false teachers.

Again he says: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law." Galatians 5:1-3. eken, if you wish to keep the passover, then you must also keep the feast days, be circumcised, and do all the obsolete ceremonies of Judaism. Just as one who believes that we must be circumcised to be saved must keep the whole law of Moses, so is it with anyone who desires to keep one ritual of that law.

Of the ceremonial law which is a "shadow" of Him, Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished." John 19:30. The things of that ceremonial law "are" a shadow of things to come because its services are preserved in the records of the Bible.

As for Acts 12:4---Herod was not a Jew. He would never keep the passover, but he would keep Easter. Moreover, the Greek word translated "Easter" in that passage is "pascha." Greek Orthodox people to this day call Easter "Pascha." Finally, the feast of unleavened bread is not the passover. It always takes place after the passover (Exodus 12:1-14 --- the passover; Exodus 12:15-20 --- the feast of unleavened bread instituted; Exodus 13:4-7 --- more instructions regarding unleavened bread [eaten after the passover]).

eken, I am confident that you will believe the Bible truth on this issue. I do not want these words of Paul to be fulfilled in you: "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." 1 Timothy 6:3-5. I pray that you see the Bible truth on this issue. God bless you :).


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1291 is a reply to message #1164] Tue, 26 April 2016 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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How are you, eken? Smile It has been a little while.

"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1506 is a reply to message #1291] Sat, 18 June 2016 06:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I have a question on this matter, but I don't feel the need to begin a new thread on it so I'll simply ask here....my family is either Roman Catholic or belong random Protestant churches (on father's side)

I haven't celebrated birthdays or Christmas holidays for years. However as many of us have experienced, these are constantly placed into our faces. For instance, my family come to gather on December 25th...I come to my grandmother's and there is dinner prepared, pee greeting me with "Merry Christmas" and gifts shoved into my hands in a room filled with family members. They accept that I don't do the same for others on this day, but they refuse to stop for me. Same with birthdays. Cards to me in the mail, phone calls from grandparents, etc. It comes to where it's almost frustrating.
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #1509 is a reply to message #1506] Sat, 18 June 2016 06:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CM1981 is currently offline  CM1981
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Sorry, I guess it's more of a thought that provokes advice rather than it being a question, but what would other church members do in my situation? I've had this in prayer for quite awhile..
Re: Pagan Holidays [message #2740 is a reply to message #1509] Sat, 06 April 2019 15:36 Go to previous message
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CM1981 wrote on Sat, 18 June 2016 09:34
Sorry, I guess it's more of a thought that provokes advice rather than it being a question, but what would other church members do in my situation? I've had this in prayer for quite awhile..
If they choose to do it, that's their choice. If they want to continue to give gifts, let them. You cannot force them to stop. But let them know you will not give gifts for the same reason. Your gifts come to show you love them.


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