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Trinity [message #24] Thu, 24 September 2015 16:24 Go to next message
Anon
The trinity doctrine was created by the Roman Catholic Church.. and enforced by publishing edited (bogus) Bibles that "prove" that the trinity is true. Yet if you read the KJV Bible it says, 1 John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Before it is said that "these three are one" proves the trinity, consider these facts...

- Jesus said in Matthew 12:31 that blasphemy against Him are forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven. If the trinity is true doctrine, then what Jesus said will be self-contradictory, because if you blaspheme Jesus you also blaspheme the Holy Ghost since "they are one being".

- Read this verse, John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." Does this mean that all the disciples will be one big ball of arms and legs and heads because they are one? No, it simply means they are all one in AGREEMENT, one in FAITH. Ephesians 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

- Consider what the Bible says about marriage... Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Look at married couples today... are they one being? 2 pairs of arms, legs, and 2 heads sticking out? Nope. They are one in agreement.

- Jesus was crucified on the cross for our sins. If trinity is true doctrine, this means God Father and the Holy Ghost was also crucified on the cross in Jesus. Common sense (after reading the Bible), declares this is heresy.

- Or how about Christ's baptism? Matthew 3:16-17 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is speaking of THREE separate Persons of the Godhead in THREE different locations at the same time! The Father in heaven, the Holy Ghost descending like a dove, and Jesus in water. This proves the trinity doctrine that God is one Being and not three separate Persons, is false doctrine.

- How about these verses? Acts 1:14 "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren." Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." Acts 2:46 "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart," Romans 5:15 "Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:" There are many more verses regarding of being in one accord. But you get the idea. Whenever the Bible speaks of people/disciples being one, it means being in agreement, like minded, one accord, albeit still are separate beings unlike what the trinity speaks of God.

Therefore, 1 John 5:7 is actually saying that the three separate Persons of the Godhead, are in one agreement, likeminded, of one accord. So what can be concluded regarding the trinity doctrine? It is heresy. Bible proves it heresy, common sense after reading the Bible proves it heresy, and the very existence of the Godhead Himself proves it heresy.

So how and why did the trinity come about? The answer can be read here...
http://www.remnantofgod.org/onegod.htm
Re: Trinity [message #428 is a reply to message #24] Sun, 01 November 2015 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mel_SDR is currently offline  Mel_SDR
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I whole-heartedly and totally agree with what you have presented here and would like to share some additional scripture to give more light on what God means when He says the Three are one, but before I do, will all those who are uncertain about or even those who support the trinitarian doctrine, search the scriptures for these two words. Godhead and trinity. Now read what it is that God says and teaches us about both.


Now back to what it is that God means about this oneness.


Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen_2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.


Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Genesis 11:6,7 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.


Genesis 34:14-17 And they said unto them, We cannot do this thing, to give our sister to one that is uncircumcised; for that were a reproach unto us: But in this will we consent unto you: If ye will be as we be, that every male of you be circumcised; Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people. But if ye will not hearken unto us, to be circumcised; then will we take our daughter, and we will be gone.


Exodu 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


Judges_20:1 Then all the children of Israel went out, and the congregation was gathered together as one man, from Dan even to Beer-sheba, with the land of Gilead, unto the LORD in Mizpeh.


Judges_20:8 And all the people arose as one man, saying, We will not any of us go to his tent, neither will we any of us turn into his house.


Judges_20:11 So all the men of Israel were gathered against the city, knit together as one man.


1Samuel 11:7,8 And he took a yoke of oxen, and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coasts of Israel by the hands of messengers, saying, Whosoever cometh not forth after Saul and after Samuel, so shall it be done unto his oxen. And the fear of the LORD fell on the people, and they came out with one consent. [Heb. as one man] And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.


2Samuel_2:25 And the children of Benjamin gathered themselves together after Abner, and became one troop, and stood on the top of an hill.


2Samuel 19:14 And he bowed the heart of all the men of Judah, even as the heart of one man; so that they sent this word unto the king, Return thou, and all thy servants.


2Chronicles_5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;


2Chronicles 30:12,13 Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and of the princes, by the word of the LORD. And there assembled at Jerusalem much people to keep the feast of unleavened bread in the second month, a very great congregation.


Ezra 3:1 And when the seventh month was come, and the children of Israel were in the cities, the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem


Nehemiah 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.


Isaiah 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.


Jeremiah 32:38,29 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:


Ezekiel 11:18-20 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new Spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Ezekiel 37:16-19 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.


Matthew_19:5,6 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain [two] shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain [two], but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


John 17:9-11 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


John 17:20-23 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Acts 2:44-47 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Acts 4:31,32 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.


Romans_12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.


Romans 15:4-7 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.


1Corinthians 1:9,10 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


1Corinthians_10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


1Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


2Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.


Philippians 2:1-3 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.


God does without a doubt explain exactly what is meant by "these three are one"

I hope and pray this helps clear up the confusion about the oneness of The FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT. I have no doubt that there will still be those who will want to argue and debate this and to those I say. You will have to take the matter up with God, for these are His words, not mine. FOR IT IS WRITTEN, THUS SAITH THE LORD.

There is a great deal more that we all need to understand about the Godhead. May I suggest going to this link, there is much information here that many do not know about the Godhead. http://www.remnantofgod.org/GodheadIssues.htm

All praise and glory be to God. Smile


Your brother in Christ
Mel
Re: Trinity [message #848 is a reply to message #428] Mon, 25 January 2016 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anon
Here are a couple of studies on the Godhead using both Scripture and the SOP.
http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/Christ-nature/God hd-HS-Bk.pdf
http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/nature.htm
http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-G/Defending%20Godhead.pdf
Re: Trinity [message #979 is a reply to message #848] Tue, 09 February 2016 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Edupier is currently offline  Edupier
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Well, tell me please, how can we sin against a force or against an influence? We sin against a PERSON. What about the unpardonable sin -Matthew 12:32?

Satan does know exactly what heaven is like and who is there. That's why he invented pseudo Messiah tales like that of Mithra who resembled the incarnation of Christ. No wonder there are triads of gods in heathen religions. Furthermore the Holy Spirit has human traits in behavior and knowledge.

The Holy Spirit is a person. Prove me wrong, please.

[Updated on: Tue, 09 February 2016 05:11]

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Re: Trinity [message #980 is a reply to message #979] Tue, 09 February 2016 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anon
The unpardonable sin, or the sin against the Holy Spirit, is persistent rejection of light, the persistent rejection of what Christ has done for us. This rejection inevitably blinds the spiritual eyes and hardens the rejecter's heart to the wooings of the Spirit, as the example of those leaders in Israel. Finally, there is utter darkness in the soul, and the person is eternally lost because he or she has ruined his or her soul's perceptivity to the promptings of the Spirit.

Placing one's self beyond the power of the Holy Spirit is "unpardonable" because we cannot even repent without the aid of the Spirit of God. God can't do anything for us unless He forces us, which He won't do. We have, through our own choices, cut ourselves off from salvation.




THE HOLY SPIRIT

#5. The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, is Christ's representative on earth, and leads sinners to repentance and to obedience of all God's requirements. He is the Comforter who guides us into all truth and convicts us of sin. He was active with the Father and the Son in creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture and safeguards it. He filled Christ's life with power and those who respond to Jesus, He will renew and transform into His image. He gives spiritual gifts to the body of Christ (the church), empowering them to bear witness for Jesus. (Gen 1:1, 2; Matt. 28:18,19; Luke 1:35; 4:18; John 3:5; 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-15; Acts 1:8; 10:38; Rom. 1:1-4; 1 Cor. 2:10; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:30; Heb. 9:14; 2 Peter 1:21)

http://www.remnantofgod.org/statementoffaith.htm

[Updated on: Tue, 09 February 2016 16:58] by Moderator

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Re: Trinity [message #981 is a reply to message #979] Tue, 09 February 2016 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anon
The Holy Spirit is a Person.

First, He exhibits five attributes of a person:

He has intellect--The Holy Spirit has intellect, for "the Spirit searches all things." (1 Cor 2:10). The Holy Spirit reveals the deep things of God and reveals them to us. The same word is used by Christ in John 5:39, where He says, "Search the Scriptures."

He has knowledge--No human being can know the thoughts of God, but the Holy Spirit understands the mind of God (1 Cor 2:11).

He has a mind--Just as the Holy Spirit knows the Father, so the Father knows the mind of the Spirit (Rom 8:27). This passage clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit has intellect because the word, "mind" (phronema), means "way of thinking, mind-set, aim, aspiration, striving" (cf. Eph 1:17).

He has emotions--As used in the Bible, it means to have feelings, awareness, and an ability to respond to something. Ephesians 4:30 is a command: "Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God." The Holy Spirit is grieved when we lie (v. 25), are angry (v. 26), steal or are lazy (v. 28), or speak unkind words (v. 29). The noun form of the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 2:2, 5, about the sorrowful feelings of the Corinthians after Paul wrote them a stern letter of reproof. Only a person can be grieved; a mere influence cannot be grieved.

He has a will--The Holy Spirit can choose and make decisions. He has a will. This is shown in several passages. In Acts 16:6, for example, the Holy Spirit exercised His will to forbid Paul to go to one place, and instead directed him to go to Europe and preach.

The Holy Spirit is a Person.

Second, He does ten things which a divine Person would do:

He testifies--The promise of Jesus was that the Holy Spirit "will bear witness of Me" (Jn 15:26). In John 15:27, the same word is used of the disciples' testifying about Christ. As the disciples would bear witness concerning Christ, so the Holy Spirit would bear witness of Christ.

He helps--Jesus promised to send His disciples "another Comforter" (Jn 14:16). "Another" means that the Holy Spirit would be a helper, as Jesus was.

He teaches--Just as Christ taught the disciples (Matt 5:2; Jn 8:2), so the Holy Spirit taught them also (Jn 14:26). He did the same teaching ministry and brought to their remembrance the words of Christ.

He guides--Jesus assured His disciples that, when the Holy Spirit came, He guided them in their search for truth (Jn 16:13). He was as a guide, escorting a traveler through an unknown country.

He convinces and convicts--It was promised that the Holy Spirit would "convict the world" of sin, righteousness, and judgment (Jn 16:8). The word, "convict" (elegcho), means to "convince someone, point something out to someone."

He regenerates--Everyone who experiences the new birth is regenerated by the Holy Spirit (Eze 36:25-27; Titus 3:5).

He intercedes--The Holy Spirit takes the pleadings of the believer and intercedes on his behalf before Christ (Rom 8:26). He intercedes for humans just as Christ does (Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25). An inanimate quality cannot intercede for anyone.

He commands--The Holy Spirit commanded that Paul and Barnabas be set apart for missionary work (Acts 13:2).

He sends out--In Acts 13:4, He sent two men out to do missionary work.

He forbids and prohibits--In Acts 8:29, the Holy Spirit directed Philip to go and speak to the Ethiopian eunuch.

The Holy Spirit is a Person.

Third, certain things can be done toward Him, which could not be done if He did not have a personality:

He can be obeyed--In Acts 10, the Lord told Peter to go to the house of Cornelius. He obeyed the Holy Spirit and went.

He can be resisted--Stephen told the Jews, about to stone him, that they were "stiff-necked . . always resisting the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51).

He can be grieved--The Holy Spirit is grieved when a person sins (Eph 4:30; cf. Isa 63:10).

He can be blasphemed--God can be blasphemed (Rev 13:6; 16:9); Christ can be blasphemed (Matt 27:39; Lk 23:39), and the Holy Spirit also can be blasphemed (Matt 12:32; Mk 3:29-30).

He can be lied to--Peter told Ananias and Sapphira that, because of their deceit, they had lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3). Because of that sin, they died.

The Holy Spirit is a Person.

Fourth, He is frequently referred to in the grammatical masculine:

Pneuma is the Greek word for "Spirit." It is a neuter gender word, and should have neuter pronouns accompanying it. However, the Biblical writers did not follow this proper grammatical pattern. Instead, in Greek, they used masculine pronouns.

Here are several examples: John 15:26, John 16:13, and John 16:14. In each instance, pneuma (Spirit) is the neuter noun, and ekeinos (He) is the masculine pronoun. This is a very purposive change. If the Spirit was not a person, it would not have been done.

THE DEITY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

The Holy Spirit is divine. His Deity is clearly taught in the Bible. If the Holy Spirit is not divine, then there is no Godhead. It is of interest that those who deny the existence of the Holy Spirit frequently go on to deny the full deity and/or the pre-existence of Christ!

[Updated on: Tue, 09 February 2016 14:05] by Moderator

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Re: Trinity [message #1198 is a reply to message #24] Fri, 08 April 2016 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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This is a worthy fact to note as well: The reason the Jews do not believe in the existence of God the Son or God the Holy Ghost is because they believe that there is only one God, even though their Scriptures say otherwise.

Even the Philistines, who had heard about the Exodus, knew the truth about the Godhead: "The Philistines were afraid, for they said, God is come into the camp. And they said, Woe unto us! for there hath not been such a thing heretofore. Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness." 1 Samuel 4:7, 8.


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.
Re: Trinity [message #1443 is a reply to message #24] Mon, 30 May 2016 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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The Holy Spirit is a person, yes. But which person? A third person making up a trinity, or the Spirit of either the Father or Son? My Bible repeatedly says the Spirit OF God. The Spirit OF Christ.
When Adam sinned, God could no longer commune with Adam. The Son of God had to step in and be the Mediator between man and God. We know this from many Biblical references, such as 1 Tim. 2:5, Eph. 1:3-6, 2 Tim. 1:9. Ellen White agrees, saying on one occasion..."To Adam in his innocence was granted communion, direct, free, and happy, with his Maker. After his transgression, God would communicate to man only through Christ and angels." Signs of the Times January 30, 1879
Does it make sense to believe that men were cut off from any communication with God, yet were somehow able to communicate with the Holy Spirit and the Son, if according to traditional trinitarian theory, are both God? If EGW is correct, and there was absolutely no possibility of any direct divine connection between man and God, then who or what was the Holy Spirit that inspired all the OT prophets?
Who is it that inspires us? Not a third person of a trinity, but Christ Himself, by His Spirit. It is Christ in us, the hope of glory.
For to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we exist. 1 Corinthians 8:6
Re: Trinity [message #1444 is a reply to message #1443] Mon, 30 May 2016 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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Hello. I just wanted to comment upon one point in your comment.

Quote:
Who is it that inspires us? Not a third person of a trinity, but Christ Himself, by His Spirit. It is Christ in us, the hope of glory.


The Holy Ghost does dwell in Christians: "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:17. And the Holy Ghost can inspire people: "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21.


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.
Re: Trinity [message #1447 is a reply to message #1444] Wed, 01 June 2016 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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Absolutely agree with the above, yes, we are filled by the Holy Spirit. But the question remains, who is He? A third person, or not? God is Spirit. There is but one Spirit of God, and He is shared by both the Father and the Son, for it was the Father who gave to the Son of His own Spirit without measure. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Re: Trinity [message #1448 is a reply to message #1447] Wed, 01 June 2016 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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I am not sure I understand your views. Do you believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, or no?

If you do not, then please read the rest of this comment.

The Holy Spirit is a person. "There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7. The Bible clearly says that there are three persons of the Godhead. The author of this comment thread demonstrates this in-depth, and explains that God is one only in agreement.

"All these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." 1 Corinthians 12:11. The Holy Spirit is not a thing, but a person. He chooses who receives what spiritual gifts. He is not an "It," but a He.

Ellen White knew that the Holy Ghost is a person. If you go to http://remnantofgod.org/Melchisedec.htm at one point on the page you can get a quote from her on this point.

The reason why the Bible calls the Holy Ghost "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Christ" is because the Holy Ghost is sent by these two Persons of the Godhead.

God the Father sends the Holy Ghost: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26.

God the Son sends the Holy Ghost: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." Jesus is the One speaking here.

God bless you Smile


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 June 2016 12:38]

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Re: Trinity [message #1451 is a reply to message #1448] Fri, 03 June 2016 05:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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Hi, yes, I believe the Holy Spirit to be a person. But as I asked in my previous post, which person? Is the Holy Spirit a third person of the Godhead, or is the Holy Spirit Crist Himself in Spirit form? Christ cannot come to us as a physical presence, as He ministers in the sanctuary He is still a human being, a man. But by His Spirit He can come and abide in us. Scripture testifies to this truth. "Christ in us, the hope of glory"...."I will come to you"...."I will never leave you nor forsake you"...there are countless verses throughout the NT where Jesus is stating categorically that it is He, Himself, that comes to us as a person and abides in us. Even the Father also abides in us through the same Spirit. It must be the same Spirit because there is only one Spirit, just as there is only one God. Compare the following....
John 4:24
Joel 2:23-29;Acts 1:4, 2:33; Acts 11:13; Luke 24:49;
Titus 3:4-6
Matt. 10:20; Romans 8:9
1 Peter 1:11
Gal. 4:6
John 14:6,16,17; 6:63; 14:17; Romans 8:2
Matt. 28:20; Heb. 13:5; John 14:18;20.
2 Cor. 13:5; Col.1:27; Eph. 3:16,17.

And here's the clincher....2 Cor.3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Getting back to the real issue with the Trinity that everyone should take a serious hold of...if you believe in the Trinity as presented in our 28 fundamentals, you mustdeny the literal Sonship and literal Fatherhood of Jesus and God. If Jesus is an eternal being...that is there never was a time when He was not, then He cannot be a Son, but merely an actor. The Father/Son motif is reduced to a mere role playing scenario and makes a mockery of many many verses, including John 3:16
Re: Trinity [message #1452 is a reply to message #1451] Fri, 03 June 2016 06:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mel_SDR is currently offline  Mel_SDR
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Hello Brakelite,

I need to clear up an apparent misunderstanding on your part. You quoted this "if you believe in the Trinity as presented in our 28 fundamentals,"

We are not SDA nor do we conform to their 27 or 28 fundamental beliefs. Here is a link to our statement of faith. http://www.remnantofgod.org/statementoffaith.htm

May I suggest this link also, it will help clear some things up for you about the Godhead. http://www.remnantofgod.org/GodheadIssues.htm

God Bless Smile




Your brother in Christ
Mel
Re: Trinity [message #1454 is a reply to message #1451] Fri, 03 June 2016 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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He is still a human being, a man


Jesus still bears the marks of His crucifixion, but Jesus always was, is, and will be, wholly divine--as divine as God the Father. Jesus was God "manifest in the flesh." 1 Timothy 3:16. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God." Isaiah 9:6.

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...just as there is only one God.


The Bible says that "there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost"(1 John 5:7); people just get confused when they read the last part of that verse. Please read John 17:11, 22 for how these three are "one."

Quote:
John 4:24
Joel 2:23-29;Acts 1:4, 2:33; Acts 11:13; Luke 24:49;
Titus 3:4-6
Matt. 10:20; Romans 8:9
1 Peter 1:11
Gal. 4:6
John 14:6,16,17; 6:63; 14:17; Romans 8:2
Matt. 28:20; Heb. 13:5; John 14:18;20.
2 Cor. 13:5; Col.1:27; Eph. 3:16,17.


I do not understand what point you are trying to make with these verses. None of these verses say that the Holy Spirit is not a third person of the Godhead. Many of them say that He (the Holy Ghost) does dwell in true Christians, but none of them say that when the Bible says that the Spirit dwells in true Christians, it actually refers to Christ in a "Spirit form." Jesus said, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever." John 14:16. Jesus makes it clear here (especially in the first part of the very next verse) that the Holy Ghost is not God the Son. Otherwise, Jesus would never have said the word "another," because it would be false of Him to say thus if He were referring to Himself in some "Spirit form."

I am especially concerned about these words of yours:

Quote:
If Jesus is an eternal being...that is there never was a time when He was not, then He cannot be a Son, but merely an actor.


If I understand your beliefs correctly, you apparently do not believe that Jesus is "an eternal being." Jesus' "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2. There was no time when He was created; He always was, is, and shall be, God the Son.

For your comments on the "Father/Son motif," please see http://remnantofgod.org/trinity.htm#begotten. God bless you Smile.


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.

[Updated on: Fri, 03 June 2016 19:49]

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Re: Trinity [message #1455 is a reply to message #1452] Fri, 03 June 2016 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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Okay, so you don't claim to be Seventh Day Adventists, although clearly your roots are bound up in the teachings of the SDA pioneers, as witnessed in your statement of faith re the prophecies. You would clearly disagree with the pioneers however on the nature of the Godhead. So, now I understand where you are all coming from. According to you guys,there are 3 Gods, and they all agree. Right. Yet my Bible says different. 1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I agree that we may call Jesus God, but not in the same sense as the Adventist or the Catholic. In fact, nor in the same sense as you. Jesus is the Son of God, His Father. Everything Jesus is, everything that is attributable to Him, is there by reason of one thing, and one thing only. Inheritance. Natural right of birth.He was begotten of His Father and thus received the very nature of His Father. Jesus is a literal natural born Son of the Almighty Father...begotten in eternity before the worlds were created, so far back in time that to our minds it is incomprehensible, yet if Jesus were not a Son , then God did not have a Son to give, and verses like John 3:16 become meaningless. As my son is human, so God's Son is deity/divine. Jesus is not the eternally unbegotten God that trinitarians teach, nor is He a 'God' in the same sense as we call the Father God.
If Jesus were an etrnal unbegotten God such as you suggest, then His Sonship becomes nothing more than a metaphor...God's fatherhood a sham, and the Father/Son motif become nothing more than roles they are playing in a drama that makes the Son's death on Calvary a lie, and His sacrifice merely human because deity cannot die, thus wholly insufficient for to save.
And the Holy Spirit is indeed the Spirit of Christ...the very same Spirit given Him of His Father...

The following quoted from Geoff Lohrere
Who is the Holy Spirit According to the Bible?

Paul says in Ephesians 4:4 that there is "one Spirit." But the Bible speaks about the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ which involves two divine beings. So how then is there only one Spirit? The answer is something the majority miss because most have been indoctrinated with the Catholic idea of the Holy Spirit as another being rather than God's own Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the mind, power, character and personal presence of the very life of God that the Father sends through His Son to us. Or to put it another way to make sure this is clear. The Holy Spirit is the presence and power of the Father manifested through Jesus Christ His begotten son. This is not a separate person of the Godhead who is being sent, it is the very life of God coming to us through His Son.

Everything Christ received He inherited from His Father including His very own life which is self-existent as it came from the Father. "For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself." John 5:26

But not only His life but Christ also received of His Fathers Spirit. Thus the Father and Son are one in Spirit, and that one Spirit proceeds from the Father and comes to us through His Son. This is why Paul equates the "Spirit of God" with the "Spirit of Christ" as it is the same one Spirit of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. And so we find that the Holy Spirit is the same Spirit whether it is spoken of as pertaining to God or Christ.

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9

Referring to the Holy Spirit, Paul says that Christ is that Spirit. "Now the Lord [Jesus] is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

And further, while Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:4 that there is only one Spirit, he again tells us in Galatians 4:6 that this Spirit is the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He received from His Father. So when you receive the Spirit of God, you receive the Spirit of His Son into your heart also. The Father did not send another individual. He sent the Spirit of His Son. "God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Galatians 4:6

Thus through the Spirit both the Father and Son come and make their abode in you. "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." John 14:23

And being one in Spirit gives us access to the Father through Christ our mediator. "For through him [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." Ephesians 2:18

So it is by the Holy Spirit that Christ lives in us. "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" Galatians 2:20

The Spirit of Christ is our Comforter (parakletos) which also means "helper" and is translated as such in the NKJV, "For I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance." Philippians 1:19

Christ had also spoken through all the prophets. "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:11

Christ has always partaken of the Spirit of God since He was begotten of the Father before anything they created. When Jesus was incarnated on earth 2000 years ago, He was full of that same Holy Spirit of God from His conception, and throughout His earthy sojourn as the Son of Man. After His resurrection and ascension to Heaven, He sent "another comforter" to earth to empower His people till the end of time, which was Himself in Spirit form. Only the Father and the Son can be present outside of their bodies throughout the Universe. Their Holy Spirit is the way in which they are omnipresent while also being physically present in the Heavenly Sanctuary as we speak. This is where the nascent Catholics made their mistakes when coming up with the incomprehensible doctrine of the trinity versus the plain word of God. In creating the trinity they philosophized when they should have left it alone as it is totally un-Scriptural.

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:45-47

Here the Apostle Paul is talking about the two Adams. The first Adam was the first created man on earth who sinned by eating the forbidden fruit. The second (last) Adam is Christ who came to redeem us. Notice that Paul says that this One was made "a quickening spirit." This is the other important thing about Christ. Not just His earthly human life, but also what happened after. In verse 46 Paul clarifies that the natural comes first and then the spiritual. This is exactly what happened with Jesus. He came to earth first as a man, ministered, ascended to Heaven, and then at Pentecost He came back in Spirit with mighty power! Both times was to instruct and sanctify His people, and that is the same purpose today. So the Holy Spirit of God the Father is now also the Spirit of Christ which point Paul confirms in verse 47. So "the Lord from Heaven" in verse 47 is the "quickening Spirit" of verse 45. It cannot be any clearer. The Spirit of God and of Christ is what Ellen White calls the "third person of the Godhead" as a spiritual manifestation and hence another form. It is different to the way we think of the word "person" when applied to human beings which is a spirit in a body.

This is because these divine beings can do something we cannot. They can leave their bodies in one place (the Heavenly Sanctuary), and also be omnipresent in every place throughout the universe at the same time by their Holy Spirit. In this way they can also enter the hearts of a repentant believer. The teachings of the Catholic trinity (three persons in one god) are now rampant in most Churches which destroys this wonderful truth of who the Holy Spirit really is by the introduction of a totally different third being which does not actually exist! And as if that were not bad enough, Satan receives the unwitting worship of millions upon millions of people through this serious deception that he has inspired man to create.

So the Holy Spirit is the very life of God coming from the Father and shared by the Son. It is the personal presence of the Father and the Son given to us. Those who partake of this divine presence and power within, the life of God, and allow Him to transform their characters into the likeness of His Son will someday personally meet this wondrous God of love.

[Updated on: Fri, 03 June 2016 21:17]

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Re: Trinity [message #1456 is a reply to message #1455] Fri, 03 June 2016 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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Okay, so you don't claim to be Seventh Day Adventists, although clearly your roots are bound up in the teachings of the SDA pioneers, as witnessed in your statement of faith re the prophecies. You would clearly disagree with the pioneers however on the nature of the Godhead. So, now I understand where you are all coming from. According to you guys,there are 3 Gods, and they all agree. Right. Yet my Bible says different. 1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


I must ask if you the part of my comment dealing with this. You will see how God is "one" if you read it. I also must provide you this blunt quote from Sister White: "The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." -Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905).

As for what the pioneers said about the Godhead: please see http://remnantofgod.org/wdtpb.htm if you are referring to the handout, "What did the Pioneers Believe?"

Quote:
If Jesus were an etrnal unbegotten God such as you suggest, then His Sonship becomes nothing more than a metaphor...God's fatherhood a sham, and the Father/Son motif become nothing more than roles they are playing in a drama that makes the Son's death on Calvary a lie, and His sacrifice merely human because deity cannot die, thus wholly insufficient for to save.


Again, I must ask if you went to the link I provided you in my comment. Jesus was "begotten" in the sense that He was risen from the dead back into life after dying on the cross for our sins. "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." Acts 13:33. Jesus was not literally born; if that were so, then Micah 5:2 would not be true, because there would be a date for Jesus' creation and so Jesus' goings forth would not be "from everlasting." It would be from a date very far in the past instead, but not from eternity.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58. He does not say, I was, as if He did not exist at some point in time. He does not say, I will be, as if He were yet to be God. He says, "I am"--I always existed, exist, and will exist. I always was, is, and will be.

Quote:
The Holy Spirit is the mind, power, character and personal presence of the very life of God that the Father sends through His Son to us. Or to put it another way to make sure this is clear. The Holy Spirit is the presence and power of the Father manifested through Jesus Christ His begotten son. This is not a separate person of the Godhead who is being sent, it is the very life of God coming to us through His Son.


If that is so, then I must ask you one simple question: do you have Bible verses to support this position?

Quote:
Everything Christ received He inherited from His Father including His very own life which is self-existent as it came from the Father. "For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself." John 5:26


I will here show the context of the verse you just quoted: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:25-29.

The "for" in verse 26 implies a logical connection formed by verse 25. Jesus is not here saying that He used to not exist. What He is saying is that God gave Him the ability to grant unto us eternal life; He has the power to resurrect us. "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth [resurrects; brings to life] whom he will." John 5:21.

Quote:
Christ has always partaken of the Spirit of God since He was begotten of the Father before anything they created. When Jesus was incarnated on earth 2000 years ago, He was full of that same Holy Spirit of God from His conception, and throughout His earthy sojourn as the Son of Man. After His resurrection and ascension to Heaven, He sent "another comforter" to earth to empower His people till the end of time, which was Himself in Spirit form. Only the Father and the Son can be present outside of their bodies throughout the Universe. Their Holy Spirit is the way in which they are omnipresent while also being physically present in the Heavenly Sanctuary as we speak. This is where the nascent Catholics made their mistakes when coming up with the incomprehensible doctrine of the trinity versus the plain word of God. In creating the trinity they philosophized when they should have left it alone as it is totally un-Scriptural.


I am not sure if you understand why what you said about the identity of the Holy Spirit is not true. You yourself just showed why this view of the Holy Ghost is false. Jesus plainly said that He is going to send "another Comforter." If the Holy Spirit is just Jesus Himself, then He lied. The word "another" shows irrefutably that Jesus was referring to One other than Himself.

Quote:
This is the other important thing about Christ. Not just His earthly human life, but also what happened after. In verse 46 Paul clarifies that the natural comes first and then the spiritual. This is exactly what happened with Jesus. He came to earth first as a man, ministered, ascended to Heaven, and then at Pentecost He came back in Spirit with mighty power!


Jesus is not the Holy Ghost. He was "made a quickening spirit" in the sense that now He is able to be with us "alway" (Matthew 28:10) through His Spirit. "Henceforth through the Spirit, Christ was to abide continually in the hearts of His children." SC 74.1

Quote:
...of who the Holy Spirit really is by the introduction of a totally different third being which does not actually exist!


The Holy Ghost does exist; He is the third person of the Godhead, separate from God the Father and God the Son. 1 John 5:7 proves this irrefutably. In Acts 5:4 we can see that we can lie to the Holy Ghost. But in Genesis 18:9-15 we see that God the Father is able to tell when people lie to Him (Sarah lies to Him in that passage), so the Holy Ghost is not God the Father. The Holy Ghost, Jesus said, is to be "another Comforter"--a different One from Himself. So the Holy Ghost is not God the Son. The Holy Ghost is God the Holy Ghost.

A passage the Lord was pleased to give me just now was this: "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12:31, 32. If the Holy Ghost is Jesus, then why is it that one can blaspheme Jesus and be forgiven, but blaspheme the Holy Ghost and not be forgiven?

God bless you Smile


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.

[Updated on: Sat, 04 June 2016 13:03]

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Re: Trinity [message #1459 is a reply to message #1456] Sat, 04 June 2016 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mouse is currently offline  mouse
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Here is a good video regarding this very topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-8vCVPTD2U
Re: Trinity [message #1465 is a reply to message #1459] Sat, 04 June 2016 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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"This refers to the omnipresence of the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, called the COMFORTER." -- (E.G. White, 14MR 179.2)
"As by faith we look to Jesus, our faith pierces the shadow, and we adore God for His wondrous love in giving JESUS THE COMFORTER." -- (E.G. White, 19MR 297.3)
"JESUS comes to you as the SPIRIT OF TRUTH;" -- (E.G. White, 2MR 337.1)
"We cannot be with CHRIST in person, as were His first disciples, but He has sent HIS HOLY SPIRIT to GUIDE US INTO ALL TRUTH, and through this power we too can bear witness for the Saviour. [John 16:13 quoted]" -- (E.G. White, Ms30, June 18, 1900)
"CHRIST has left HIS HOLY SPIRIT to be HIS REPRESENTATIVE in the world," -- (E.G. White, Lt84, October 22, 1895)
"The Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST; it is HIS REPRESENTATIVE." -- (E.G. White, 13MR 313.3, 1895)
"He [Christ] breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: ... Before the disciples could fulfill their official duties in connection with the church, CHRIST breathed HIS SPIRIT upon them." -- (E.G. White, DOA, p. 805)
"CHRIST declared that the divine influence of HIS SPIRIT was to be with His followers UNTO THE END. From the DAY OF PENTECOST to the present time, the COMFORTER has been sent to all who have yielded themselves fully to the Lord and to His service." -- (E.G. White, AA, 49.2)
"Remember the words of CHRIST, remember that HE is an unseen presence in the PERSON of the Holy Spirit," -- (E.G. White, DG 185.2, 1897)
"They have ONE God and ONE Saviour; and ONE Spirit--the Spirit of Christ--" -- (E.G. White, 9T, p. 189, 1909)
"We want the HOLY SPIRIT, which is JESUS CHRIST." -- (E.G. White, Lt66, April 10, 1894)

We know SOP says "SIN could be resisted and overcome ONLY through the mighty agency of the THIRD PERSON of the Godhead," -- (E.G. White, DOA, 671.2). So which lines up with SOP? A third being or the SOP which says it is the Spirit of Christ?

"There is no power in you apart from CHRIST, but it is your privilege to have Christ abiding in your heart by faith, and HE can OVERCOME SIN in you, when you cooperate with His efforts." -- (E.G. White, OHC, 76.5)
"With HIS SPIRIT CHRIST sends a reconciling influence and a power that TAKES AWAY SIN." -- (E.G. White, RH, May 19, 1904)

"The Father and the Son ALONE are to be exalted." -- (E.G. White, YI, July 7, 1898)
"God and Christ ALONE know what the souls of men have cost." -- (E.G. White, ST, January 13, 1909)
"The ONLY Being who was one with God lived the law in humanity, descended to the lowly life of a common laborer, and toiled at the carpenter's bench with His earthly parent." -- (E.G. White, ST, October 14, 1897)

So Ellen White was 100% consistent in all that she wrote.

She says the Comforter is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST,
the Spirit of Truth is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST,
the third person is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST,
the third great power is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST,
the Holy Spirit Christ sent to represent Himself was HIS own SPIRIT,
the Spirit Jesus breathed on His disciples was HIS SPIRIT,
the Spirit given at Pentecost was HIS own SPIRIT,
the Heavenly trio is the Father, Son and SPIRIT OF CHRIST,
when we grieve the Holy Spirit it is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST we grieve,
and she reveals over and over again that there are only two beings in the Godhead.

So we find it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to be a third being. SOP identifies two beings ALONE and constantly reveals the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ in every way. Why the confusion? Because most have failed to notice that Ellen White called the Spirit of Christ a person and was not referring to a literal person.

As for the Father Son paradigm...you believe and promulgate the concept that Jesus did not become a Son until the resurrection. Please think carefully and consider John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....if Jesus were not a Son until after the resurrection, then God did NOT give His Son to die...God did not HAVE a Son to give. Also, if Jesus were divine in the very same respects as the Father, then He , being deity, could NOT DIE, thus we are left with but a human sacrifice which is insufficient to take away sin.
Re: Trinity [message #1466 is a reply to message #1465] Sat, 04 June 2016 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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Questions that Need Answers on Ellen White and the Trinity

1. Why didn't Ellen White rebuke the two messengers of the 1888 Message during the 1890's for their views on the Sonship of Christ, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the Latter Rain and the Loud Cry, as they clearly differed from the Trinitarian position? Instead we find that God told her in 1905 that the works of the pioneers were to be reproduced.

2. For a prophetess who borrowed some terms, expressions and sometimes whole sentences from other writers, why was she meticulously careful never to once borrow the term trinity, or to state it in no uncertain terms?

3. Why is there no record of a vision or dream from the Lord telling Ellen White to change her views, and to correct the views of the denomination to accept the trinity doctrine? Instead we find that God told her the opposite. In 1905, which is ten years after it is claimed she had become a Trinitarian, God told her to reproduce the works of the pioneers that were anti-Trinitarian. She also said that God had not instructed her to change anything that she ever wrote since she was a girl.

4. As the prophetess to the last days remnant Church, wouldn't she have been duty bound to go to the leaders of the Adventist denomination at the time, and explain to them their error? Why didn't she call a meeting of the leaders and scholars of the Church at the time and do this? If Ellen White failed to rebuke such a falsehood then she would have failed miserably in her duty as a messenger of the Lord. "reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:2

5. Why didn't she write private testimonies to any of the Church leaders, clarifying the necessity to change to Trinitarianism? Was it Ellen White's way to allow people to continue to believe and teach error, and then just publish a book, and leave it to gradually change the mind of whoever might read it, without even saying to anybody "we were wrong on this matter?"

6. Why did she choose to publish her supposed new views in an evangelistic book designed for the general public, as if she wanted the world to think the Adventist Church was Trinitarian? Would not this be deceptive on her part, and against Gospel order (Matthew 18:15-17)? The method she chose to employ on this issue opened the whole Church to public embarrassment, scandal and controversy. But nothing came of it at the time. Why is this so?

7. Why did Ellen White pen these words five years after the publication of The Desire of Ages in 1903? "In Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, The Great Controversy, and in Daniel and the Revelation, there is precious instruction. These books must be regarded as of special importance, and every effort should be made to get them before the people." -- (E.G. White, 21MR 440.4 and Letter 229, 1903). Ellen White saw no problem between Uriah Smith's non-Trinitarian 'Daniel and the Revelation' and her supposedly Trinitarian 'Desire of Ages.' Here she recommends books that were unmistakably non-Trinitarian and a Trinitarian would never do that yet alone highly promote them. It was in 1945 that LeRoy Froom had two pages (710 words) of non-Trinitarian statements removed from the book 'Daniel and the Revelation' which she said was of special importance and every effort should be made to get it before the people. LeRoy Froom said that out of all the books he had edited, 'Daniel and the Revelation' by Uriah Smith was the worst. So either she was not a Trinitarian or she strongly promoted a false doctrine to the world, which would make her a false prophet. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

8. Why didn't Ellen White organize in the 17 years after the Desire of Ages was published, to re-edit her books as Froom had done, to remove the many non-Trinitarian thoughts, thus aiding the Church along the supposed path of truth? Perhaps God made a bad choice and LeRoy Froom should have been the chosen prophet since he did what she did not do.

9. It is a known fact that The Desire of Ages was largely compiled from her existing writings, put together by herself and her assistant. It was also a book which took some years to compile. There was no reaction when these so called "Trinitarian statements" were first published in the years prior to 1898. Why then in more recent years do scholars make such strong statements about the importance of the book in changing the direction of the whole denomination? And yet these statements made very little impact on the minds of leaders, scholars and teachers within the Church for many years. Why is this so?

10. If Ellen White was a Trinitarian when she finished writing the Desire Of Ages in 1895, why were the "official beliefs" of the Seventh day Adventist Church, that were printed in every Yearbook, still non-Trinitarian when she died in 1915, being 20 years after the release of this book, and 36 years before the first "fundamental beliefs" even contained the word Trinity? How can this be? The Church should have been Trinitarian before 1900. As stated many times already, Trinitarians claim that her writings changed to Trinitarian by the time she wrote the Desire Of Ages which was finished in 1895. And yet the Desire of Ages is in fact full of non-Trinitarian statements. And not forgetting that Ellen White said ten years after this book was finished that the truth never changed and new truths never contradicted the old.

In the February 1983 Ministry magazine, Adventist leadership published a statement on "The inspiration and authority of the Ellen G. White writings." Under the heading "Denials" we read:

"3. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White function as the foundation and final authority of Christian faith as does Scripture.
4. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White may be used as the basis of doctrine.
6. We do not believe that Scripture can be understood only through the writings of Ellen White.
7. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White exhaust the meaning of Scripture."

So it appears we are faced with something of a contradiction. It's one thing to profess something, but if your actions deny your profession, what is the profession worth? In my experience, in every article, sermon and discussion on the trinity doctrine, when scriptural references are lacking, the weight of the argument is determined by quotations from Ellen White.

The above questions demand answers. And I am yet to find one Trinitarian who deals with this topic in a satisfactory way. The Adventist Pioneers had clear doctrinal exegesis for all of their beliefs, and yet when it comes to the trinity, a very recent addition to the Fundamentals, no one as yet has found one clear text in Scripture to prove this doctrine. By this I mean one text that shows that God is composed of three co-equal, co-eternal persons or beings that are composed of the same substance. Scholars around the world have acknowledged for years that the trinity doctrine is not found in Scripture but is a later addition. And yet people take sides, arguing theology from a few Ellen White statements, ignoring the Word of God, and the vast majority of her statements over the whole length of her lifetime that reveal she never became a Trinitarian and that the non-Trinitarian view was God given from the very beginning. The weight of evidence is overwhelming.
Re: Trinity [message #1468 is a reply to message #1466] Sat, 04 June 2016 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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Quote:
"This refers to the omnipresence of the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, called the COMFORTER." -- (E.G. White, 14MR 179.2)
"We cannot be with CHRIST in person, as were His first disciples, but He has sent HIS HOLY SPIRIT to GUIDE US INTO ALL TRUTH, and through this power we too can bear witness for the Saviour. [John 16:13 quoted]" -- (E.G. White, Ms30, June 18, 1900)
"CHRIST has left HIS HOLY SPIRIT to be HIS REPRESENTATIVE in the world," -- (E.G. White, Lt84, October 22, 1895)
"The Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST; it is HIS REPRESENTATIVE." -- (E.G. White, 13MR 313.3, 1895)
"He [Christ] breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: ... Before the disciples could fulfill their official duties in connection with the church, CHRIST breathed HIS SPIRIT upon them." -- (E.G. White, DOA, p. 805)
"CHRIST declared that the divine influence of HIS SPIRIT was to be with His followers UNTO THE END. From the DAY OF PENTECOST to the present time, the COMFORTER has been sent to all who have yielded themselves fully to the Lord and to His service." -- (E.G. White, AA, 49.2)
"They have ONE God and ONE Saviour; and ONE Spirit--the Spirit of Christ--" -- (E.G. White, 9T, p. 189, 1909)


These quotes do not prove that the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ. All of these basically show that the Holy Spirit can be given by Christ which is not in contradiction to the Bible. I must inform you that you are reading things in these quotes which the quotes themselves do not say. The title "Spirit of Christ" means the same Being as "Spirit of God" and "the Holy Ghost" and "the Holy Spirit" just like "Father," "God," "Jehovah," and "the Lord" all apply to God the Father.

The last quote has an important distinction: the word "and" preceded by a semi-colon. This shows that Ellen White is not referring exclusively to the Holy Ghost in that quote.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." John 16:13-15. The Holy Ghost can only speak what He receives of the Father or the Son. It follows that if God the Son has "all things," He can send out the Holy Ghost by giving Him of these things.

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." John 15:26. We can see that God the Father can send out the Holy Ghost as well. Just because Christ is able to send the Holy Ghost out does not mean that He is literally the Holy Ghost. Otherwise, the Father is the Holy Ghost as well, because He too can send out the Holy Ghost.

But these are not all the quotes you provided me. So in the next section, I shall examine one by one the other quotes not mentioned in the above box.

Quote:
"As by faith we look to Jesus, our faith pierces the shadow, and we adore God for His wondrous love in giving JESUS THE COMFORTER." -- (E.G. White, 19MR 297.3)


I went and looked up this quote on egwwritings.org and this is what I found: "Preston, Melbourne, July 26, 1892--I thank the Lord that I am His child, that I can cry, Abba Father. Although I am in pain day and night, yet the grace of Christ sustains me. If I had not hope in Jesus, how lonely I should be! I have a Saviour who is the light of life. How precious to me is the sight that I catch of Jesus during my long, wakeful hours. 'The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Corinthians 2:14). {19MR 297.2}

How essential that we have the enlightenment of the Spirit of God; for thus only can we see the glory of Christ, and by beholding become changed from character to character in and through faith in Christ. We turn from the picture of our shortcomings to behold the atonement made for us, and we rejoice as we know that we may be clothed with Christ's righteousness. In Him all fulness dwells. He has grace and pardon for every soul. As by faith we look to Jesus, our faith pierces the shadow, and we adore God for His wondrous love in giving Jesus the Comforter. {19MR 297.3}

In context, Ellen White is referring to how Jesus comforts us. Jesus is actually a Comforter. This is why Jesus says, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever." John 14:16. The Holy Ghost (verse 17) is a different Being than Christ. Both are Comforters. Jesus uses the word "another" to show that the Holy Ghost is not He Himself and He also uses that phrase to show that He Himself can comfort us.

Quote:
"JESUS comes to you as the SPIRIT OF TRUTH;" -- (E.G. White, 2MR 337.1)


I will admit that I do not understand how to reconcile this quote with the Bible's teachings on the Holy Ghost. But let me ask you a question: do you believe that a prophet of the Lord will contradict not only her own "Special Testimon[y]," but also the word of God? Jesus is a different Being than the Holy Ghost. Perhaps the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy say that Jesus is able to come unto us like the Spirit of God. Perhaps they do not say this. I must study this out.

I think Mel_C may be able to explain this quote better than I can; he knows much more about both the pioneers' writings as well as Ellen White's writings than I myself do.

Quote:
"Remember the words of CHRIST, remember that HE is an unseen presence in the PERSON of the Holy Spirit," -- (E.G. White, DG 185.2, 1897)


The devotional you quote from got these words from Letter 124, 1897.

Earlier in that letter, Ellen White wrote: "Keep cheerful. Do not forget that you have a Comforter, the Holy Spirit, which Christ has appointed." {Lt124-1897.4}. In other words, Ellen White recognized that the Holy Spirit and Christ are separate Beings. The testimony I quoted in my response to your elaboration proves this hands down.

"What saith our Saviour? 'I will not leave thee comfortless; I will come unto you.' 'He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father; and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.' When trials overshadow the soul, remember the words of Christ, remember that He is an unseen presence in the person of the Holy Spirit, and He will be the peace and comfort given you, manifesting to you that He is with you, the Sun of Righteousness, chasing away your darkness. 'If a man loves me,' Christ said, 'he will keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.' Be of good cheer; light will come, and your soul will rejoice greatly in the Lord." {Lt124-1897.10}

Again, I must study what the Bible says about this subject.

Quote:
"We want the HOLY SPIRIT, which is JESUS CHRIST." -- (E.G. White, Lt66, April 10, 1894)


Your quote shows up in {Lt66-1894.18}.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to explain these past three quotes from Ellen White that you provided me. I am certain there are valid explanations for these quotes. Just because I am presented with difficulties I cannot immediately resolve does not mean that I am going to suddenly disregard the plain Bible testimony that "there are three" Gods (see also Genesis 1:26, my point on Matthew 12:31, 32; and John 17:11, 22). I would not do that anymore than I would disregard the Bible's teachings on creationism if an evolutionist came up to me with arguments for evolutionism that I have never heard of before and therefore have not studied how to answer. I would not do that anymore than I would disregard the truth that "the dead know not any thing" if someone who believed in life after death immediate used an argument that I had not heard of before and thus one which I had not studied how to answer.

I guess another point is worth mentioning here: Perhaps the Jesuits have intentionally altered these quotations, just like (so I hear) they have removed other quotes from Last Day Events and other books that involve Ellen White's writings. We should not be surprised if the Jesuits are altering these writings just like men under the influence of Satan wrote the Gospel of Barnabas and other heretical so-called "lost books." We should not be surprised that the Jesuits already have defeated the Adventist church, especially given that Dwight Nelson says that Allah is God and apparently believes in pantheism. We should not be surprised that the Adventist church is fallen, given that a Seventh-day Adventist was recently running for the Republican nomination in direct disobedience to both the Bible and Sister White's writings. You said that you are unsure if you agree with separating from the General Conference. Please go to http://sdaapostasy.org/ to see not only the apostasy of the Seventh-day Adventist church in detail, but also scores of blunt quotes from Sister White and the Bible on that issue. Because I am an adolescent living in a family that does not accept the truth, I have difficulties staying away from false churches. God willing when out of the house I will never set foot in a non-SDR church again.

Now, to answer your second comment.

As I look upon the questions you posted, I am unsure if you know what the Bible and the Seventh-day Remnant Church say about the Godhead. The Trinity is a false doctrine. Ellen White as well as the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers were not Trinitarians. "Adventist P.S. Cottrell wrote in the July 6, 1869, issue of Review & Herald, 'To hold to the doctrine of the Trinity is not so much an evidence of evil intention as of intoxication from that wine of which all nations have drunk. The fact that it was one of the leading doctrines, if not the very chief, upon which the bishop of Rome was exalted to the popedom, does not say much in its favor . . . . This should cause men to investigate it for themselves, as when the spirits of devils working miracles undertake the advocacy of the immortality of the soul.'" http://www.remnantofgod.org/trinity.htm#sda

I must tell you that you have not been able to provide any Bible answers to my latest comment to you (the one in response to your elaboration of your views on the Holy Ghost). You have not been able to answer the blunt quote from Sister White on "the heavenly trio;" the quotes you provided did not cancel out that specific one. The Bible says this of certain people who reject the truth: "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." 1 Timothy 6:3-5. You know better than I do your motives for your questions. I pray that it is not because of the reason given in 1 Timothy 6:4.

Quote:
In the February 1983 Ministry magazine, Adventist leadership published a statement on "The inspiration and authority of the Ellen G. White writings." Under the heading "Denials" we read:

"3. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White function as the foundation and final authority of Christian faith as does Scripture.
4. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White may be used as the basis of doctrine.
6. We do not believe that Scripture can be understood only through the writings of Ellen White.
7. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White exhaust the meaning of Scripture."


I am unaware if you are quoting the same person as you did in your elaboration on your views on the Holy Ghost, but you just denounced yourself; for you in your comment attempted to use Sister White to prove your own views.

Ellen White was a true prophet of God. If she ever contradicted what saith the Scriptures (but of course everything she says is Biblical), she would be a false prophet. See Isaiah 8:20.

Ellen White is, as both Isaiah 8:20 and her introduction to The Great Controversy show, is not above the Bible. However, her writings can be used to define doctrine because, since she was a true prophet, she could never say anything unBiblical in her writings without either further unmistakable light from the Lord clarifying her misunderstanding of a certain doctrine and reproving her, or, if she does not repent of her error after receiving this light, without becoming a false prophet.

Statements 6 and 7 are true. "If any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." 1 Corinthians 8:2. We cannot exhaust Scripture's meaning.

Quote:
...yet when it comes to the trinity, a very recent addition to the Fundamentals, no one as yet has found one clear text in Scripture to prove this doctrine. By this I mean one text that shows that God is composed of three co-equal, co-eternal persons or beings that are composed of the same substance.


I am unsure if you are still quoting "Questions that Need Answers on Ellen White and the Trinity" or not, but whoever is the author of what you are saying in your comment does not understand what the Trinity doctrine is. The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God and that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are really all the same God (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity). Of course, as I said and demonstrated (and as the original author of this post demonstrated), the Trinity is a false doctrine. http://remnantofgod.org/trinity.htm

Quote:
And yet people take sides, arguing theology from a few Ellen White statements, ignoring the Word of God, and the vast majority of her statements over the whole length of her lifetime that reveal she never became a Trinitarian and that the non-Trinitarian view was God given from the very beginning.


This statement is actually true. Ellen White was not a Trinitarian; she believed exactly what the Bible says about the Godhead--that there are "three" that bear witness in heaven; that there are three Gods, all one in agreement. Unfortunately, the one who originally wrote these words down did not understand what the Trinity doctrine is, so he was trying to make another message here.

Titus 3:10 commands me to leave you alone right now.


"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.

[Updated on: Sat, 04 June 2016 22:03]

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Re: Trinity [message #1470 is a reply to message #1468] Sun, 05 June 2016 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mel_SDR is currently offline  Mel_SDR
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Hello There,

Good day brother and may I say, Well Said and Amen Smile

In reference to the quote above referring to "the above questions demand answers" has been copied word for word from a website that denounces Ellen White as a prophet. I am not sure of the link but I will look for it, and as I'm sure you know, there are many more just like it.

Again, Amen bro and God Bless


Your brother in Christ
Mel
Re: Trinity [message #1471 is a reply to message #1470] Sun, 05 June 2016 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hello There is currently offline  Hello There
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God bless you too Smile

"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isaiah 50:10.
Re: Trinity [message #1472 is a reply to message #1471] Sun, 05 June 2016 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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I agree entirely that Jesuits have indeed infiltrated the church, and altered writings. It is difficult of course to know which ones, and how, but I would suggest that any changes to any work that tend to reflect Roman doctrine could be under suspicion. One such is the quote you have offered several times, the one concerning the 'heavenly trio', from DOA
This is what I believe, as succinctly as I can present it.
The Holy Spirit is the presence of God Himself. We are partakers of the divine nature because it is God Himself who dwells in us.
"The divine Spirit that the words redeemer promised to send is the presence and power of God.Signs of the Times Nov 16 1891
"In giving us His Spirit, God gives us Himself"....Testimonies for the Church pg273
The Holy Spirit is the eternal life of God our Father, given to us through His Son.
"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" Romans 8:10
I have noticed in your quoting the apostle John re the comforter, you stop short of quoting the full conversation....
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Thus the Holy Spirit is not a third individual being, or god, but is the presence and power and Spirit of Jesus. It is Jesus Himself i Spirit form, that is why He could say another comforter...it is another apart from His physical self...it is His Spirit.
"The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ" DOA pg805 (Early 1888 edition).
As with all things Christ gives to us, they orignate from the Father, the Spirit not excluded.
"Christ's humanity was united with divinty: He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit' DOA pg123
"In His humanity, He laid hold of the divinity of God. And this every member of the human family has the privilege of doing. Christ did nothing that the human nature may not do if it partakes of the divine nature". Signs of the Times June 17, 1897
"Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear". Acts 2:33.
I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Matt 28:20
I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you. Matt 14:18
"The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, as the personal presence of Christ to the soul." The EGW Materials p1075 par3
The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He (Christ) would represent Himself in all places by His Holy Spirit , as the omnipresent." Manuscript Releases Vol 14 pg23-24.

Could it be that you don't understand the various quotes and Biblical references I have been offering because you are looking at them from the wrong perspective? Look at them from the persepctive of Father, Son, and their own Spirit shared, and things will make sense.
Re: Trinity [message #1473 is a reply to message #1472] Sun, 05 June 2016 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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When we have the Holy Spirit in us, we have Christ Himself.
See and read carefully the following...Eph 4:10; John 17:23; Gal 2:20; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal 4:6 (my personal favorite..how can a third separate individual being/god claim the Father as His except it be Christ Himself?)1 John 3:24; Revel.3:20
"But it was difficult even for the disciples to understand the words of Christ. That Christ should manifest Himself to them, and yet be invisible to the world was a mystery to them. They could not understand the words of Christ in a spiritual sense. They were thinking of the outward visible manifestation.They could not take in the fact that they could have the presence of Christ with them, and yet be unseen by the world. Signs of the Times Nov 18 1897 par6
Re: Trinity [message #1474 is a reply to message #1473] Sun, 05 June 2016 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mel_SDR is currently offline  Mel_SDR
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Breaklite;

As for this quote you shared - "I agree entirely that Jesuits have indeed infiltrated the church, and altered writings. It is difficult of course to know which ones, and how, but I would suggest that any changes to any work that tend to reflect Roman doctrine could be under suspicion. One such is the quote you have offered several times, the one concerning the 'heavenly trio', from DOA"

This claim has been made by many and I ask you to share the the altered writings vs. the original.

You have made a serious attempt to show that the Holy Spirit is not a third and individual person of the Godhead. Please read the following verses and show me only two, for I myself can see plain as day there are without a doubt THREE.


Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


I leave you with a warning from God Himself, 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.


God Bless





Your brother in Christ
Mel

[Updated on: Sun, 05 June 2016 20:59]

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Re: Trinity [message #1475 is a reply to message #1474] Mon, 06 June 2016 00:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brakelite is currently offline  Brakelite
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MelC. You are viewing those texts through the 3/god tinted glasses. You are assuming the existence of 3 gods based on your interpretation, yet there are other texts which clearly reveal only two beings in the actual Godhead and that without any interpretation necessary. One such text is 1 Cor 8:6. I am sure you have had this pointed out to you before; have you been able to refute it or have you ignored it?
1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
And while we are speaking of refuting, can you do so with any of what I mentioned in my previous post? Throughout scripture and throughout Ellen White's writings, the Holy Spirit is described as the Spirit ofGod, or the Spirit of Christ. In other words, the Spirit belongs to the Father and Son. It is given to the Son, and passed on to us as a gift. Read again the many testimonies from the prophet which reveal the Spirit as being Christ's own spirit. When someone talks of our spirit, do we understand that to mean another being inside us? of course not, so why do we assume such a thing based on a couple of quotes from EGW which speak of 3 beings which can readily be explained and understood without resorting to 3 Gods which completely corrupts scripture?
The pioneers of the SDA church had correctly identified the trinity as a leading doctrne of the Antichrist. They labelled everything Catholic as pagan, and so rejected the trinity outright. But perhaps they took things a little too far. In claiming the Holy Spirit as being merely a 'power', I believe they were mistaken, and EGW took steps in her later writings to correct this error, whila at the same time never rebuking any of the pioneers for actually being non-trinitarian. Her correction was to the effect that the Holy Spirit was indded a person...not the father who ruled personally from the throne in glory...not the Son who mediated before the Father...but the Spirit that the Father gave His Son and which was passed on to the church at Pentecost. This Spirit is more than a mere power or life force, although it is indeed both these things. It is in fact the very real omnipresence of God. Not a third person or third individual being but the Spirit OF God...the Spirit OF Christ. One God...One Spirit..One faith...One body.
Re: Trinity [message #1476 is a reply to message #1475] Wed, 08 June 2016 18:21 Go to previous message
mouse is currently offline  mouse
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"- Jesus said in Matthew 12:31 that blasphemy against Him are forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven. If the trinity is true doctrine, then what Jesus said will be self-contradictory, because if you blaspheme Jesus you also blaspheme the Holy Ghost since "they are one being"."

Since you say the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ Himself, how do you blaspheme Christ and yet somehow not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, if they are one Being?

Blasphemy against Holy Spirit is continual resistance against the Holy Spirit, at which point God can no longer reach out to you for repentance or to help you. Once that is blocked out by the heart, there is nothing else that can be done for you. That is why it is unpardonable sin. Please be careful what you are doing here.

[Updated on: Wed, 08 June 2016 18:22]

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